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Ethan Metsger wrote:
> Gary McNees wrote:
>
>
>>Eathan, man cannot obey the law. We sin is all that we do.
>>But we can receive the free gift of salvation by believing
>>in Christ. Regeneration comes through faith and not faith
>>through regeneration.
>>
>>Stop using you faulty logic and listen to God.
>
>
> Gary, I've asked a simple question:

And I have given a scriptural answer. You take a verse and make a
doctrine which contradicts hundreds of Scriptures.
Do YOU believe that God is LOVE? Do you believe that God desires
ALL to be saved? Do you believe that God does NOT desire the
death of the wicked? I don't think that you do. Not if you
are a Calvinist.

You quote: Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the
plowing of the wicked, is sin.

But YOU and I are wicked. Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is,
in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but
how to perform what is good I do not find.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness,
which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the
righteousness which is of God by faith:

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance,
that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

And to top it off: Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and
all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a
leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

SO, if Isaiah considers himself a wicked man, one whose "righteousness"
is filth rags, then what IS your point???

The words "wicked" and "good," are used differently in different
contexts. There is none who is GOOD. This means, in my view, the the
only ABSOLUTE GOOD is God. But as Matthew is so fond of quoting, a
number of people are denoted by God as being "righteous."

Let me ask, what do you make of: 1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord
are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but
the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Do not even the saved regenerate do "evil." We are "righteous" because
God imputes Christ's righteousness to us. How do you define "wicked."


> When the evil give good gifts to their children, are they sinning or not?
> I am not using logic here, I'm talking Scripture. God says that when
> the wicked does something, he sins, regardless of the action.

No, He does not. You are adding to Scripture. And further, if you are
defining the unregenerate as the wicked, then what constitutes this
"wickedness?" Their sin? What about our sin?

According to Calvin, I believe, even the regenerate sin when doing their
best prayer. That is, there is sin mixed in with prayer. So what does
this do to your position?

A new question.

How is it a GOOD deed to RECEIVE a free gift! Seems quite selfish to me!

Well, that is how we get saved! And the idea is preposterous that if you
give me a billion dollars and I receive it, that I somehow have a part
in the making of the gift. This is what the Calvinist often asserts.
That if one must receive salvation by faith then they are somehow
"saving themselves," or "have a part in the salvation," such a theory is
obviously false. Salvation is an infinite gift of God, and man has no
part in the creation of it.

> You offered the passage as proof that the evil can freely choose to do
> good. You still have not resolved my question about the Scriptural basis
> for your claim.

This good is a relative thing. I think I have answered this objection
sufficiently. It is good to do the lessor evil. But nothing we do is
good enough to "merit" salvation. None of us can keep the law perfectly
even for a moment.

>>1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the
>>knowledge of the truth.
>
>
> Read 1 Tim 4.10. He _is_ the savior of all men. All men are saved, at
> least in some sense. But he is especially the savior of believers. You
> want salvation to mean the same thing in every verse--and you simply can't
> do that without doing violence to the language.

Salvation is provided for ALL men without exception. But salvation is
given only to those who believe. God desires all men without exception
to be saved eternally, and has provided the means for such salvation,
but men can and do refuse to be saved. God said this, not me. Calvinism
takes hundreds of verses which speak of this and tries it best to make
them say the very opposite.

Such as the verse: 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among
the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily
shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought
them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I've seen the machinations that the Calvinists make to try to obviate
this verse! It is really sickening to those of us who have finally seen
the LIGHT. I repeat, Calvinism takes EVERY verse in the Bible in which
God shows His infinite mercy, love, and goodness, and makes them void!
And there are hundreds of such verses.

I am sure Christ is very well pleased!

>>2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men
>>count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any
>>should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
>
>
> He's longsuffering to _us_. Not _them_. There's a good implication here
> that the "any" here refers to those of his own children.

Baloney. There is no doubt that any of the elect will be saved.
The verse does NOT say, 9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His
promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not
willing that any [OF US] should perish but that all [OF US] should come
to repentance."

But this is again just an example of a Calvinist turning the universal
love of God into actual HATE! Your theology specifically teaches that no
one is able to believe, but that God has created all men to be unable to
believe. And He has also created them without free will. Thus they
cannot but sin. And on top of all this, He then tortures them for
eternity for not believing in Christ, which He keeps them from doing!

Such wonderful logic, and doctrine it is!

Some Calvinists openly use "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated," to be a
reference to the elect and the non-elect respectively. Thus they
maintain that God hates the non-elect, and since the non-elect are lost,
and few find the way to life and many are lost, this means that God
hates the many and loves the few.

The logic is inescapable. The God of Calvinism is a God of hate, and
since we all agree that God is infinite in all His attributes, (well the
Calvinists take exception to the attribute of LOVE), this God is a God
who hates infinitely! Such Satan himself cannot do. This infinite hatred
is manifested in their eternal torture. Now punishment for disbelief in
Christ where the person could have believed, is just, but punishment for
disbelief in Christ, where God Himself withholds the only possible
means, and "passes by" these, is not just by any standard.

>>Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against
>>you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:
>>therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
>
>
> If you'd read the whole sermon, you'd have a more accurate picture of this
> verse.
>
> "2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all
> that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and
> unto all his servants, and unto all his land; 3 The great temptations
> which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: 4 Yet
> the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and
> ears to hear, unto this day" (Deu 29).

So? Are you going to eisegesis the daylights out of this too? All Israel
is ALL Israel!

> "6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy
> seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy
> soul, that thou mayest live" (Deu 30).

Do YOU LOVE the Lord your God with ALL YOUR HEART??? etc.

> God _must_ make a change in us for us to be able to choose anything good.
> It is _not possible_ to believe until he makes that change.

It is. You have the proverbial cart before the horse. Scripture
contradicts you theory. Salvation is THROUGH faith, not faith through
salvation.

Believing is not a GOOD WORK! And through this faith, God does change
us, so that we can by His grace actually do good, even though it is
still mixed with sinful things.

Gary

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