Raggio
From Kristos Vocabulary Booster
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Italian
Etymology
Latin radius
Noun
raggio m (plural raggi)
Related terms
gkmcnees@comcast.net wrote:
> I am interested in how you infer keeping the 1st commandment
> is saving faith. In fact, all I infer from the commandments is
> quite the opposite. Any commandment for that matter.
>
> I'm a lot like Adam, not very good at keeping commandments,
> no matter how simple. And then you go and say that keeping
> the 1st commandment is saving faith, and, well, I am overwhelmed!
This is the key issue. You (the "you" who hypothetically
buys into my system) are thinking "If having saving faith is
tantamount to keeping the 1st Commandment, then, since I
can't keep the 1st Commandment, I won't have saving faith."
And this shows that you think of "having saving faith"
as an action. But I'm saying that faith is _granted_.
We are saved because Christ's perfect obedience is imputed
to us. This includes obedience to the 1st Commandment
and having perfect faith in God.
Failing to have perfect faith is a sin, and even that
sin is forgiven.
You want to insist that there's some sort of meta-mechanics
whereby salvation (which is some sort of ethereal substance, I
guess) is given through faith (which is some sort of tube, I
guess.)
My assertion is that salvation IS the granting of faith.
Not that salvation comes first or second, but is the same
as. Christ saves us by gracing us with faith.
It's a lot to ask, but maybe if you'd read Luther's sermon on
the 1st Commandment, you'd understand my viewpoint better.
You can find it online at:
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/catechism/web/ca
t-03.html
(But it's very long. No American today could sit through a sermon
like this. About 8 pages, I think.)
> Yet again another passage which proves to us who actually believe
> God, that we can never be lost.
So now it's you who is preaching OSAS?
>> I don't say it does. You do. You think we can
>> do things to save ourselves, i.e., believe.
>
> Only those who believe the Gospel are saved.
And, as the statistians chant, "Correlation is not
causation." The fact that we believe is a gift, and
it's part of the gift of salvation. You keep insisting
that God says something different, but you haven't
been able to quote Him yet.
> Salvation is truly by Grace, but through faith.
Faith is a gift of grace. We never put a "but"
in our salvation formula.
> I just used the example, but perhaps it was a poor one.
> God says that Christ dies for man on the Cross.
> Those who believe are saved, those who disbelieve are condemned.
And where is causation here? (It ain't.) Where is you
justification for preaching that a person believes (of his
own free will) and THEN, ON THAT BASIS, God gives him grace?
You say you follow Scripture, but you don't have any
Scripture to support your most fundamental tenet.
> God says those who believe the Gospel are saved. Period.
Right. Period. He doesn't say "believe so that I can
save you" or "believe by an exercise of your free will"
or any of the other non-Scriptural things you put in
his mouth. Correlation is not causation.
> I believe that all dying in infancy are saved.
There are two immediate problems with this.
1. Then infants are saved by a means other than
Christ, and so you have another way to heaven
besides the Door. (In contradiction to Scripture.)
2. If it were true, we all need to be out there
killing infants as quickly as possible, before they
have a chance to grow up and ruin their salvation.
It's the only merciful thing to do.
This error is another outgrowth of "free will".
Since all Jesus did was "enable" man to make
a free will decision, then that decision becomes
all important. Since infants can't make such a
decision, they can't be saved. Oh my, we'd better
cook up some more unscriptural doctrine to account
for the infants.
So much for the guy who claimed to follow God.
>>>God speaks to adults and commands them to repent and believe.
>>>
>>>Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God
>>>is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
>>
>>
>> "Command" being the key word. If we obey the command and
>> this saves us, then we've just been saved by obedience,
>> which, elsewhere, you say you don't believe.
>
> God saves us through faith, by Grace.
> You can continue to try your sophist logical "Tricks"
> but I will not succumb.
Hmmm...that's quite a logical trick. I said it was
a command, you (finally) also said it was a command.
We both agree now that we are commanded to believe.
So it shouldn't really be a huge logical leap
from "command" (verb) to "commandment" (noun).
It's not "grace" if you have to earn it by obeying
a command.
> Your system is that faith comes through salvation.
> The very opposite of what God says.
You've said several things here about my system which
I've never said. Are you sure you understand it?
> If your system is correct then why does God repeat again
> and again, over and over, in many ways, in many places, that
> salvation, life, sealing, and every other blessing of
> salvation comes THROUGH faith?
"Through" faith is fine. You keep saying _by_ faith.
Decide which it is and then stick to it.
> Well, in Calvinism an offer which cannot be received is
> no offer. And this is what at least they teach. And
> I believe that you do to.
Even the word "offer" is your own addition to Scripture,
which you have to insert because of your "free will"
doctrine. O Scripture follower, where does it say
in the Bible that God "offers" salvation, as if we
were supposed to drop by and pick it up? It doesn't.
Instead, Scripture says that God saves us.
> I thought you said that you believe in Total Depravity
I'm not a Calvinist.
> So isn't every man born lost and dead,
> the so-called "offer" is not "real" because the man
> is born dead?
It's _your_ invention that the mechanics of salvation
is that God holds it out as an offer and we have to
snatch it. You do well to call it "so-called", because
it is not offered, but given.
>>>No, the above is precisely what I am preaching. If I were to look
>>>at myself, I would be very discouraged to say the least.
>>
>>
>> But you do keep looking at yourself. "Do I have enough
>> faith to be saved? Is it of the right type ("saving" faith)?"
>> Etc.
>
> When have I ever made such a statement? NEVER!
You're looking at yourself to see if you're looking
in the right direction. (Plethora humourous analogies
suggest themselves.)
> I really think that you make salvation much more of a
> work than I ever even dreamed of.
>
> It seems like your are expending an awful lot of
> energy to try to nullify the simple gospel I teach.
>
> "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved"
You're Gospel is much more complicated than mine. You
require something from man, I do not. Mine's simpler.
Mine is pure grace, yours is grace plus works. Yours
is more complicated.
> God said this through Paul. YOU deny it. I believe it.
I don't deny it. I deny what you think it means. You
think it means that believing is a prerequisite for
grace. That is flatly impossible.
>>>The issue I am concerned with is the logical order
>>>of faith and salvation. Scripture says that faith
>>>logically precedes salvation.
>>
>>
>> No it doesn't. You don't have a single verse which says
>> this.
>
> Any verse which says that salvation, life, regeneration,
> begetting, sealing, etc. comes THROUGH faith says this.
No they don't. You read that into them. By what
reason or authority do you get to change the concept
of "through" to "precedes"?
> I believe Him and not you. Simple.
And you're quite boastful of your act of believing.
And your God is so happy with you for believing that
He rewards you with salvation for it. Simple works
righteousness.
> My believing cost me nothing.
Who is doing the believing? Answer: You.
So it's your act. The subject of the verb "believe"
is "you". It's a commandment and you're obeying it.
Congratulations.
> Again, God says that believing is not works, Bart says
> it is.
Find a verse that says that.
Bart
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