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On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:53:30 +0000 (UTC), Matthew Johnson wrote:

[snip
>
>>>>The Sadducees denied there was any ressurection.(Luke 20:27) Jesus
>>>>spoke those words to show "that the dead are raised" (Luke 20:37).
>
>>> You miss the point. By speaking those words, he proved _MORE_ than
>>> "that the dead are raised". He proved that the reposed saints are
>>> still, in some important sense of the word, alive.
>
>>Yes, but not in the sense you make it.
>
> No, it really IS in the sense I make it.
>
No, it is not.

> [snip]
>
>>One can not be raised unless he is first DEAD. If he is ALIVE then he
>>can not be subject to the resurrection, and therefore can not be said
>>to "rise".
>
> How can you not see that this is unsatisfactory? For Christ called
> Abraham ALIVE.

No, Jesus said, "for to him (God) all are alive". Only if you delete "to
him" will the text say what your trying to make it say.

>
>>But, in his discussion with the Sadducees, Jesus affirmed "that the
>>DEAD are raised" (Luke 20:37)--not that those who are ALIVE are
>>raised.
>
> You miss the point: He also referred to at least _some_ of these
> 'dead' as ALIVE. Your exegesis overlooks this.

No, my exegesis is tempered by the context here and in other places that
refer to the subject under question by the Sadducees--whether there is a
resurrection. Clearly there is a resurrection. That is when the 'dead' will
'rise' and be made 'alive'.

>
>>So your assertion that "the reposed saints are still, in some
>>important sense of the word, alive" would make the act of the
>>resurrection meaningless.
>
> No, it does no such thing. How could it, when Christ Himself calls
> them 'alive'?

OK. Here is a fundamental difference. I believe that man is a unity.
Spirit, soul and body united to make one being. One can not be whole, and
thus alive, without either part, including the body. Evidently, you
believe we can.

>
>> They cannot be 'reposed' and at the same time ALIVE,
>
> Sure, they can. And Christ said so.
>
>> for it is at the resurrection that they brought to life and, as has
>>been shown, that takes place when Jesus returns.
>
> No, it is at the resurrection that they receive new spiritual bodies.

Yes, and that's exaclty why they will be made alive. For if they are not
resurrected then, as Paul said, "...then is not Christ raised: And if
Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins." (1Cor
15:16-17 AV).

When did Christ rise? On the third day after his death.

"For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be
Lord both of the dead and living." Roma 14:9 (AV)

Take Christ: It says here he 'revived'--lived again--after he rose.
Clearly, the title, Lord of the living, required him to rise from the dead,
which he did. Again, this supports my argument that, the living are those
who are not dead. For a dead person to be called living, they must be
first rise. If Christ did not rise, He would only be called Lord of the
dead.

>
> [snip]
>
>>> And your emphasis is misplaced. The "dead in Christ" are
>>> alive to God.
>
>
>>No, my emphasis is to show that those believers who have passed away
>>are called "_THE DEAD_ IN CHRIST" not the "ALIVE in Christ". It is
>>WHEN they RISE that they will be ALIVE.
>
> But this is simply wrong. Sure, in _this_ passage, they are called
> "dead in Christ", but in the Luke passage we started with, they were
> called 'alive'. Stop overlooking this.

I have not overlooked this AT ALL. "To God all ARE alive" To you and I
they (the reposed saints) are 'the dead in Christ' (ie they have no
thoughts, no knowledge, and do not praise God). But they will 'rise' in
the General Resurrection AT THE LAST DAY.

>
>>> Is that why you had to quote _around_ the crucial verse?
>>> For I see you quote before, you quote after, but you AVOID
>>> quoting:
>
>>> Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living;
>>> FOR ALL LIVE TO HIM." (Luk 20:38 RSVA)
>
>>> [snip]
>
>>No, there was no need to quote it in refuting your initial assertion,
>>that being, that I was in some way defending 'the error of the
>>Sadducees.' I REFUTE totally that assertion.
>
>>Now with reference to Luke 20:38 supporting your assertion that "the
>>reposed saints are still, in some important sense of the word, alive":
>
>>Yes, to God ALL live. ie From His perspective--that of past,
>> present and future--ALL may be said to live.
>
> But you have NO right to assume that THIS is what He means here. You
> are committing 'eisegesis'.

No I am committing 'exegesis' in context, for Jesus is arguing 'that the
dead are raised'. That resurrection is yet to take place in the temporal
order of things. However, it was _at the burning bush_ when God first uses
the name "I AM" (Ex 3:14)--the name which in itself implies his eternal
presence. To him, past present and future are one. So, though we die, yet
to God we live.

"For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him"
Luke 20:38 (AV)

And he is God of the living in the context of the resurrection.

Walter L Liefeld has written, "God's children are also 'children of' (i.e.,
are characterized by) the Resurrection. Note the repetion of the word
'resurrection, and the absence of any reference to the Greek concept of
'immortality.' It is not persistence of life but that 'the dead rise' (v.
37) that Jesus is teaching." Walter L Liefeld, Expositor's Bible
Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984), vol.
8, p. 1017.

And that resurrection will be "at the last day" not before.
>
>>In the temporal order of things ALL, both the reposed saints and the
>>reposed wicked will LIVE again but they must be first resurrected. Note
>>Jesus words in John 5:25-29:
>
>>"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when
>>THE DEAD shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and THEY THAT HEAR
>>_shall_ LIVE" (John 5:25 AV)
>
>>How many of the DEAD will hear Jesus voice?
>
> How many times must you read the controversy and yet you still do not
> understand? IT is QUITE controversial who these 'dead' are He is
> talking about.
>

Please explain. I take it "ALL" implies every soul that has ever lived on
this earth and has now physically died.

>>"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that
>>are in the graves shall HEAR his voice" (John 5:28 AV)
>
> Now how can the dead hear?

They hear in the sense that they will respond to Jesus voice, just as the
deaf man's ears responded to Jesus command, "Be opened" (Matt 7:33 AV).
Just as the waves responded when he stilled the sea. Just as light shone
out of darkness when God spoke the word, just as any part of his inanimate
creation responds when he speaks the word.

>
>>ALL will hear. Both the reposed wicked and the reposed saints. And
>>(from v25) THEY THAT HEAR shall _LIVE_. Then what?
>
> The verb 'live' is being used in a different sense here.

I'm waiting.

>
>>"And shall _come forth_; THEY that have DONE GOOD, unto the
>>resurrection of life; and THEY that have DONE EVIL, unto the
>>resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29 AV)
>
>> From 1Thess 4:13-17, the 'resurrection of life' takes place at the
>>second coming of Christ, not before.
>
> And that is sometimes more clearly called "the General
> Resurrection". It is the resurrection we refer to in the Creed when we
> say, "I believe in the Resurrection of the Dead, and in the life of
> the World to come".

On this I agree with you, for "I believe in the Resurrection of the Dead
and in the life of the World to come."

Cheers,
Paul.

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