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Greetings in the Lord, George.

wrote in message
news:130.07.10.05.724212000@srcbs.org...
>
>
>
> Gary McNees wrote:
>
>
>
> > This IS THE problem. God says that He draws all men.
>
> I like that! If God saves everybody, that is OK with me.

I meant the God draws, as He says,
Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have
loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I
drawn thee.

all men with "loving kindness." But since I believe that man can refuse
God's
love, not all will be saved. But the only ones who are lost are lost because
they
chose to be lost.

> > John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men
> unto
> > me.
> >
> > Hence your, IRRESISTABLE drawing contradicts this verse,
>
> No, mine does not. But, I can see from your statement that your
> understanding of IRRESISTABLE drawing does contradict that verse. We
> have different understanding as to what one would mean by the term
> "IRRESISTABLE drawing." I kind of like the term, but I have never
> heard it used outside this, our dialogue. Perhaps you and I have quite
> different understandings of the term.

What Calvinists mean by the I in TULIP is Irresistable Grace.
That is, man cannot resist God's Grace of Drawing him. I posted
a short synopsis of Geisler's view of the amount of persuasion
allowed for various views in Chritianity. These were taken
from, Chosen But Free.. page. 186,. By Norman Geisler.

"The scale of persuasion allowed" ranges as follows:

No influence allowed -- Pelagian (no grace needed)

Some influence allowed -- Semi-Pelagian (some grace needed)

Much influence allowed -- Arminianism (much grace needed)

Great influence allowed -- "Moderate Calvinism [gkm: I don't agree with
Geisler that what he teaches should be called any form of Calvinism,
moderate or any other, but it is not up to me] (great grace needed;
irresistable grace on the willing)

Overwhelming influence allowed -- Extreme Calvinism (irresistable grace on
the unwilling needed.)

This last is necessary since the Calvinist doctrine of TULIP, means that
man is Totally Depraved, and hence will not under any circumstances
believe God til God first regenerates him. So the term "Irresistable Grace."

Man cannot resist it, since man is not involved at all. God regenerates him
WITHOUT his will, and then the man is of course, willing.

> > for God
> > says ALL men are drawn, but it is quite evident that ALL do not come
> to
> > Christ.
> > >
> > > > God MUST first regenerate them, and as a RESULT they
> > > > then MUST believe.
> > >
> > > Right! Now you are beginning to understand.
> >
> > No, I am NOT BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND. I have known
> > Calvinism for the last 30 years.
>
>
> Those Calvinist you talked to and read about for 30 years, have a right
> to their view of Calvinism. I have no intention of trying to defend
> their views of Calvinism. I only defend my views. I think that we
> should appreciate people as individuals and not just as a group of
> clones. I, myself think that it is stupid to say, you must not be an
> Southerner, for I have known Southerners for 30 years and they never
> said what you said.

Good. It one believes God, one wont go too far wrong.

snip
> >
> > If faith is a "GIFT" then it is a gift which God offers to all men,
> and
> > one which they can either refuse or accept.
>
> I am sure they think they can.

Very subtle.

> > The bottom line of your theology,
>
> That is your problem, you do not know what my theology is.

Well, you said you were a Calvinist, and I thought a Calvinist
believed TULIP. I took off from there. TULIP is the summation
of doctrine which a Calvinist believes which distinguishes him from
other Christians.

> > and I now understand that you are
> > a historical Calvinist,
>
> You have described what you think a historical Calvinist believes, and
> I don't believe that. Then how can you think that I can be a
> historical Calvinist? Your logic is quite strange to me. Why don't
> you accept me as an individual rather than try to force me to fit into
> your preconceived idea of a Calvinist?

I do accept you as an individual. I disagree with the doctrines
as express in TULIP. I thought you believed these since you
said you were a Calvinist.

> > one which by simple logic, from the T in
> > TULIP, believes that God damns the vast multitude of men who
> > He could have saved.
>
> Me not TULIP, me George. If TULIP do you wrong, punish TULIP. It is
> not good thing to punish George for what TULIP believes. George got
> brain, George don't know if TULIP got brain, and if TULIP do have
> brain, George not responsible for what TULIP believes.

LOL.

> > The reason that they are damned is because
> > God "passed them by." This means that this God is infinitely worse
> > than Satan.
>
> Again that is that TULIP fellow's stuff, not George's stuff.

This matter of "passes them by," is from the Westminster Confession
of Faith.


Any, Good talking to you, George.

I'll pick up again when you write something I can agree or disagree with.

Gary


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